In a six-year study interviewing 104 transfer-intending students, Jabbar, an associate professor at the , said viewing transfer issues solely as a community college problem only 鈥渕oves the needle a little bit.鈥�

鈥淎 lot of these existing reforms that focus on community colleges do help,鈥� Jabbar told 社区黑料. 鈥淏ut it doesn’t address the larger problem if universities are not helping students.鈥�

The students, who attended either Central Community College or the Fernando Community College System in Texas, experienced many difficulties in transferring 鈥� from credit loss to inadequate career advising.

鈥淐ommunity colleges don’t have the power to say whether those credits subsequently transfer or whether the student is admitted to a university,鈥� Schudde, an associate professor at , told 社区黑料. 

鈥淎nd if that information is not readily available or changes, then any guidance they have offered to students goes out the window.鈥�

In their 鈥淒iscredited: Power, Privilege, and Community College Transfer,鈥� Schudde and Jabbar argue that transfer policy is a complex public higher education issue rather than an isolated community college problem.

鈥淢ost research is really focused on the hurdles, the information problems and the barriers within community colleges,鈥� Jabbar said. 鈥淸But] we can’t solve the problem of community college transfer without also holding universities accountable and bringing them in.鈥�

This interview has been edited for length and clarity.

The book began with the story of Teresa 鈥� a Latina, 19-year-old community college student raised in Texas 鈥� who planned to transfer to a four-year college but was left confused about the steps she needed to take to do so. Can you tell me more about how her experience speaks broadly to the often confusing student-transfer pathway?

Jabbar: There were so many stories, but Teresa exemplified the kinds of experiences that we heard and revealed it wasn’t just that there were hurdles along the way. Oftentimes we hear about students鈥� life experiences, such as working to support family members, that are obviously barriers to transfer. But there were also these institutional barriers 鈥� and not just at the community college level.

For Teresa, it was after she transferred that she was like 鈥榳ait a minute, these policies don’t line up.鈥� And she expressed the frustration that a lot of our students felt when she talked about how she wished these institutions would just get together and come up with some kind of agreement that would make the process more streamlined. That’s why we highlighted her story.

Schudde: I would add that in a lot of research she might be viewed as a success story. Most research looks at transfer-intending students and if they transferred. But when you only look at this you miss everything that happens in the process. 

As we followed students, we did get to see some actually graduate and get their bachelor’s degree. But Teresa鈥檚 case helped us highlight that even the success story has things that go on within it that are really challenging for students to deal with.

Your work takes a closer look into more than 100 transfer-intending community college students who attended either Central Community College or the Fernando Community College System in Texas. Was there a reason why you sampled this student population?

Schudde: Huriya and I worked together at The University of Texas at Austin in the department for education leadership and policy. Huriya started there a year before me and was working on a project studying community college students that were interested in transferring. When I arrived, I was working on a project that was studying the personnel who worked with those transfer students to understand how they’re making sense of transfer policies in Texas.

We started talking and realized we could merge these two things. She also had a sample of over 100 community college students 鈥� that’s a big deal. So we ended up pursuing more funding and followed those students for six years.

The majority of students in the sample identified as Latino because that is what the majority of students in Texas, particularly at community colleges, identify as. And most students in the sample also come from low-income families.

Jabbar: In most states, the vast majority of students starting at a community college are low-income students and often students of color. So in many ways our sample aligns with the general population of community colleges across the country.

The book illustrates how transfer success is closely tied to how well college institutions confront 鈥渙vert and hidden barriers鈥� 鈥� from credit loss to flaws in career advising. From your research, where do you see the largest opportunities for college leaders at two-year and four-year institutions to improve their transfer outcomes?

Jabbar: We see the problem as somewhat different than it has been talked about in the past. Most research is really focused on the hurdles, the information problems and the barriers within community colleges. Our argument is that we can’t solve the problem of community college transfer without also holding universities accountable and bringing them in. We need to move from viewing this as a community college problem to a public higher education problem.

Schudde: So many of the reforms to date have focused on community colleges and it’s like moving the needle the tiniest amount. That’s because the community colleges don’t have the power to say whether those credits subsequently transfer or whether the student is admitted to a university. And if that information is not readily available or changes, then any guidance they have offered to students goes out the window. It had no meaning. 

There’s a bunch of one-off solutions where we could say to every university 鈥榳e really want you to build these reliable transfer agreements with your most common feeder community colleges鈥� but it feels like those recommendations have not been effective in the past. Especially because some of the most powerful universities feel like 鈥榳ell why should I have to do that?鈥� And we’re talking about public universities here where they should think of themselves as part of this public higher education ecosystem. 

What we would like to see is a mandate for an associate degree that transfers. Something that would allow someone from a community college to move into a public university and know that they’re going to be at junior status as long as they have the 60 credits. That would require action from university actors because they would have to decide how those credits count.

The reason why I’m emphasizing some sort of state government action is because there’s been all this research the past several decades about community college transfer but no action has happened when it’s left up to universities. They don’t have incentives to do that. There’s also this tension between whose credits are going to count towards the degree because there’s money involved. There would need to be some legislative action, which we’ve seen in some states, that would require university actors to make these changes and take some accountability.

My understanding is that a majority of Texas community colleges utilize the guided pathways advising model. How has this influenced the transfer student experience?

Schudde: When we first started talking to students, that was when the guided pathways advising model was coming out. There was some movement but the community colleges had not fully adopted it when the first and second wave of interviews started. Around the third year we started seeing staff mentioning that the advising models were changing. 

That guidance has been helping but something we do say in the book is that the challenge is still there. If all the community colleges are adopting this but the university that a student goes to is unaware or doesn’t care to know what classes they took, then it doesn’t necessarily help the student. 

That thread has to carry all the way through into the bachelor’s degree. So for this reform to actually make a large impact on getting a bachelor’s degree, we need to see the universities are also adopting, or at least recognizing, those courses that they have to take in their first two years.

Jabbar: A lot of these existing reforms that focus on community colleges do help and move the needle a little bit. Students are getting better advising, or more frequent advising, and they鈥檙e being guided while in community college. But it doesn’t address the larger problem if universities are not helping students.

Schudde: Guided pathways is probably the biggest reform community colleges have seen in a long time. But in most cases I don’t know if it’s getting to the university. Unless it’s a university that works really closely with their local community college, it doesn’t seem like a lot of them are really aware that students are being guided to take this set of core courses. Which means that, ideally, those core courses would also be the universities prerequisites for the major鈥檚 coursework. So that’s why that connection to the next set of institutions is so important.

It goes without saying that racial and socioeconomic equity and access in higher education plays a role in transfer success. How does this tie in with the findings in your book?

Schudde: The reason why this ties in so much with ongoing conversations, especially about racial equity in higher education, is because universities aren’t really able to use all the same tools that they used to use in admissions processes. We have this other public higher education system, community colleges, that have really had a democratizing effect 鈥� allowing greater access for students from low-income families to students of color. Historically, that’s who they’re serving. 

We didn鈥檛 necessarily see major differences across race but there were some across social class. There were some students who had more connections to other people that had navigated the transfer process and been to a university. Those sorts of things helped them figure out who to talk to and what they needed to know in order to take the right classes. 

The gist of our argument, and how it relates to equity, is we need to make these pathways easier to navigate. Under the current context, it’s not easy for them to do that which means we’re really limiting the power of our higher education systems to help with social mobility.

Jabbar: The goal would be that policy remedies can help address the uneven information access and social capital that students coming in have. Institutions should be able to address that and even it out. The existing system is really disadvantageous to community college students who seek to get a bachelor’s degree. 

We really do believe institutions can support students in achieving those goals, but right now they’re not. And because they are disproportionately low-income and students of color that’s where they reproduce existing inequities.

After working on this book, what would you say was your most surprising takeaway?

Jabbar: The main argument of this book is not something I thought we were going to make going into it. I really thought we were going to focus on community colleges. What are the barriers within community colleges? And how can we improve systems within community colleges? I don’t think I realized just how powerful universities were in creating some of the problems that we were seeing in the community colleges. So it was a surprise to me when we looked at the data.

Schudde: Some of the things that surprised me was how candid some of the university actors are when we talked to them about this. So it’s not that I’m surprised by the findings, but I expected some of them to be more guarded about it. It was very explicit in some conversations where it’s basically complete acknowledgement of gatekeeping. That was shocking for me.

What鈥檚 something people aren鈥檛 talking enough about regarding the state of transfer policies?

Schudde: I would say more questions about how we change the minds of university actors. And this is not to say I believe they have ill will. This idea of gatekeeping is very much them prioritizing what they see as maintaining the rigor of their programs. Huriya and I are both university faculty so we鈥檝e seen what it’s like to be on this side. We have those conversations. It happens. 

A lot of the burden turns back to what community colleges can do whereas I believe the bigger question is how we get the universities to be willing partners. Or at least be policy change compliance partners and help them see that there are some benefits for everyone if we make these changes.

Jabbar: There might be some interest convergence opportunities here with the bans on affirmative action and institutions still committed to admitting a diverse population. If we can help them see that community colleges could be one pathway to doing that, that’s one place to shift their perceptions. 

One of the big things for me that is interesting about this study is understanding the cost of decentralized policies that give more autonomy and flexibility, but often put the burden on historically marginalized students and families. 

Schudde: Our proposal is basically trying to centralize some of these decisions. The processes would still remain within a university, but they would be mandated to take those community college credits and could still have the autonomy to decide how they count. Especially in Texas, which is a state that has really prioritized institutional autonomy and decentralization, that might be a harder pill to swallow than in some other contexts. 

I do agree with Huriya that we could really see it play out at the individual level. Not just students but also advisors at the community colleges and universities are trying to make sense of every institution’s set of policies. It’s just not manageable at the individual level so there’s a reason why there are benefits to centralizing some of these decisions.

After a 2013 traffic stop exposed her undocumented status, Alejandra Juarez, 43, was confronted by the officer, and eventually deported to Mexico in August 2018 in the wake of the Trump administration鈥檚 strict .

鈥淒espite my mom being a military wife and having no criminal record she was deported,鈥� Estela, 13, told 社区黑料. 鈥淚 think it’s very important for people to understand how our immigration laws not only hurt undocumented immigrants, but also the whole family.鈥�

Transforming her childhood love of journal writing, Estela is now sharing her story as the daughter of an undocumented immigrant in 鈥淯ntil Someone Listens,鈥� a children鈥檚 book co-written with Lissette Norman.

With illustrations by Teresa Mart铆nez, Estela recalls her mother鈥檚 journey to permanently reside in the United States.

After living apart from her family for over three years, the Biden administration granted Alejandra a , which was recently extended until May 2023.

In the interim, Alejandra has joined Estela鈥檚 book tour to not only advocate for her own U.S. residency but also comprehensive immigration reform.

鈥淭he feedback we got from a lot of hardcore Republicans and former Donald Trump supporters is that when they hear our story from the perspective of a child, it makes them change their mind,鈥� Alejandra told 社区黑料. 鈥淎nd that’s my hope 鈥� by Estela telling her story, immigration rules can change.鈥�

This interview has been edited for length and clarity.

社区黑料: For Estela, tell me more about 鈥淯ntil Someone Listens鈥� and why writing a book was the best way to capture your story.

Estela: I know that there are many kids out there with a similar situation as me. I wanted to create a book in a way where it could inspire other children and let them know there’s somebody out there that’s going through the same situation as you.

What is the key takeaway you would want someone reading 鈥淯ntil Someone Listens鈥� to understand about your story?

Estela: I would like them to know that my story is one of many. And by reading the book, I hope they understand how our immigration laws really, really hurt families.

You write in your book 鈥淪ome see people like my mom as ugly weeds that need to be plucked out of the dirt. But they鈥檙e not weeds. They鈥檙e wildflowers, all with pretty shapes and colors, each one a different kind of beauty.鈥� What were your thoughts as you wrote this?

Estela: I know many people think my mom doesn’t deserve to live in this country and be with her family over here. She contributes so much to this country yet most people see her as a criminal 鈥� but she’s not a criminal and she’s not causing any harm.

After his election in 2016, former President Donald Trump adopted a 鈥渮ero-tolerance鈥� policy on undocumented immigrants which placed Alejandra on a high priority deportation list. For Alejandra, tell me more about what was going through your mind when this happened.

Alejandra: The best way to explain to you is that I couldn’t believe it. Even when I got deported, I thought that they were going to bring me back. I thought that they were going to say we made a mistake. It took me a year and a half to realize that it really happened. I just couldn’t believe it. The cruelty of the Trump administration to do that to a stay-at-home mom with no criminal record and, on top of that, a military wife. I couldn’t comprehend it. So much evilness and cruelty.

Your story has been shared through not just a book tour, but also a and even the . With that in mind, what鈥檚 something about your story either no one asks or no one realizes it鈥檚 important to ask?

Estela: Most people should know that my dad is a military veteran. Despite my mom being a military wife and having no criminal record she was deported. And I think it’s very important for people to understand how our immigration laws not only hurt undocumented immigrants, but also the whole family.

Alejandra: What nobody asks is how many more people like us are out there. People want to believe that there are only a few of us. There are more than a million undocumented people with an American child. So like Estela mentioned before, our story is the same story of too many.

On the topic of your dad Estela and husband Alejandra, I understand that he is a naturalized U.S. citizen, served in the Marines and voted for Trump in 2016 because he thought he would protect military families. What is your hope for the Biden administration in regards to U.S. immigration policies?

Estela: I know this administration has a good heart and I know that they care about military families. I hope that by hearing my story, they can change those broken immigration laws because that鈥檚 the only way my mother will be able to stay here permanently. It鈥檚 not just important for us but many other families to be reunited again.

Alejandra: I have hope for this administration. I believe that they have the heart and the intention to change their broken immigration laws. I know that Congress needs to act. We did Estela鈥檚 first book tour at two schools and we just came back. The feedback we got from a lot of hardcore Republicans and former Donald Trump supporters is that when they hear our story from the perspective of a child, it makes them change their mind. And that’s my hope 鈥� by Estela telling her story, immigration rules can change.

You speak about your experiences with so much courage and conviction. Where does your strength come from?

Estela: For me, I started to really use my voice and spread the message about my mom’s story when she was getting deported. I saw how, even after she came back, the trauma she had. It always stays in my mind and really burns my fire to want to continue sharing my story.

Alejandra: I am a very spiritual person and my strength comes from God. There’s no way to fix this unless immigration laws change. I was told by 32 lawyers that there was no way I was going to be able to come back. So the fact that I am back and that I am here thanks to that was featured in the Democratic Convention makes me think that things can change. I mean, if I was able to come back even temporarily then maybe there’s a way we can fix immigration laws permanently. So that gives me the strength and the courage to know that it can be done.

What advice would you give someone in a similar circumstance that鈥檚 too scared to share their story?

Estela: If you’re too scared to fight, just know that I am over here fighting for you and I won’t stop until I see more families reunited. Even if by some miracle my mom is allowed to stay here permanently, I will never stop fighting until immigration laws are changed.

Alejandra: The first thing I鈥檇 tell them is nothing comes out of being silent. So you have to keep talking. You have to keep writing. One of the things that I have talked to a few kids about when we did school visits is to Google who your local legislator is and send them a letter. By sending them letters we put pressure on legislators to change the laws. The only way you can make sure the laws are going to change is if we put enough pressure and get people to talk.

What do next steps look like as you continue pushing for comprehensive immigration reform?

Estela: I’m currently writing another book for the adult and teenage audience that goes into even more detail about my experience being the daughter of an undocumented immigrant. I also hope to see more child authors sharing their story and to see other people get inspired by my story.

Alejandra: I want Hispanic kids to write and read. That’s the main thing. We need to get more educated. I want first and second generation Hispanic kids to be like 鈥渋f she could do it, I can do it too.鈥� The fact that we went to a book fair with 50 other authors, only five of them were minorities and Estela was the only child. For me, we need to be an example for kids. And then of course inspire kids to push for immigration laws to change. But the main thing is, we as Hispanic people and as a minority need to get educated and start reading more.