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Class Disrupted is an education podcast featuring author Michael Horn and Futre鈥檚 Diane Tavenner in conversation with educators, school leaders, students and other members of school communities as they investigate the challenges facing the education system in the aftermath of the pandemic 鈥� and where we should go from here. Find every episode by bookmarking our Class Disrupted page or subscribing on , or .

In the season opener of Class Disrupted, Diane Tavenner and Michael Horn reflect on their journey co-hosting the podcast and take stock of the evolving challenges and opportunities in education, setting the stage for a deep dive into an urgent need for high school transformation. 

Reflecting on their experiences with artificial intelligence at a personal, professional and societal level, they outline what Class Disrupted will cover in the year ahead.

Listen to the episode below. A full transcript follows. 

Diane Tavenner: Hey, Michael.

Michael Horn: Hey, Diane.

Diane Tavenner: We鈥檙e back.

Welcome Back: education system changes

Michael Horn: We are back indeed, for our 8th season, which is quite frankly hard for me to believe, Diane.

Diane Tavenner: It is for me, too. It鈥檚 shocking. So much for a single 10-episode podcast that we were going to record in the depths of COVID lockdown and explore the core changes to our education system that we thought would become immediately obvious to everyone as a result of that disruption.

Michael Horn: We were so quaint and cute though, right? Like, I still remember sort of like phone calls out, like distant from my in-laws and so forth with you planning it out. But look, obviously we miscalculated the rate of change, or maybe we were just hopeful for something that didn鈥檛 materialize. We also didn鈥檛 see AI coming in the way that it has. And I think that what we may have gotten right, though, is that the need for change in our education system, like literally the whole thing, it really has maybe never been more apparent. And, but I know we want to focus a little bit more on the high school element here this season. And I think the need for the change in the latter has increasingly become really obvious to most people living through COVID, living through this AI movement, putting significant pressure on what has been a building, budding frustration for quite a while, Diane.

Diane Tavenner: Michael, I think pressure is the right description of this moment. I hold in my mind this image of literally a pressure cooker with that little thing on top that鈥檚 like, you know, just about to whistle and go off. And that comes from just the dialogue I鈥檓 having with young people and educators and parents where there just is a clarity and a consistency in how people are describing the evidence that our high schools are outdated and they鈥檙e no longer serving individuals and our society. And I think AI is forcing action in a way that even COVID didn鈥檛, or maybe COVID started it and now the momentum is building, the pressure is building to stay with that metaphor. But there just seems to be a recognition that something has to change, and it has to change fast. And so that is one of the feelings that I have right now.

Michael Horn: Yeah, no, that there鈥檚 no question that needs to change, that pressure cooker to do something, act now. It鈥檚 one of the few drivers of what we really want to explore and dig into this season. I think I may be past making predictions at the moment that the conventional high school will naturally roll over. But I think the question to me is if and how that change actually occurs. But we want to push on it. You and I, and with several others, have had a lot of conversations this summer about where we want to go. And as always, we鈥檙e grateful for our listeners, frankly, chiming in with their thoughts, their questions, their not so gentle, in some cases, suggestions of where we ought to go, which has helped shape our own exploration and what we want to do. But I think we鈥檙e pretty aligned on the things that we are curious about, Diane.

Diane Tavenner: That鈥檚 probably not surprising to most people. It鈥檚 probably also not surprising that we are going to continue to go deep on AI. Even though it鈥檚 been our focus for some time, it feels like we鈥檝e just scratched the surface there as it continues to unfold. And so we鈥檙e going to stick with that. Last season, we invited folks to explore a framework for how we might think about AI in schools. I鈥檓 talking about the sort of three horizon or three types of school models we used as a lens last year. We actually heard from a lot of people that that was a really helpful lens, and a lot of the feedback and dialogue we had sort of helped use that framework as we were in conversation with folks. One of the deep dives we鈥檝e been doing is based on, you know, what we鈥檝e been learning and how we might be more nuanced and bring more utility to a lens.

So we鈥檙e going to offer something new as a way of processing all of our conversations we鈥檙e going to have over the course of the season. And, you know, those conversations will sit at the intersection of AI and learning and, you know, this pressure we鈥檙e identifying for a new system that is modern, for lack of a better term.

New framework for high school change

Michael Horn: Yeah. And I鈥檓 frankly really excited about that lens, that new thing that we鈥檙e going to introduce as a new framework for thinking about the change that we think is required in high school. And we鈥檙e going to spend some time on it this season. Another thing we鈥檙e going to also spend time on is lessons learned from past efforts at changing schools. I alluded to it earlier that I鈥檓 skeptical folks have perhaps learned all the right lessons from past efforts of, quote unquote, this time shall be different actions. And given that we sense a lot of folks are starting to or considering taking big action, we want to do what we can to support the field building on what has been done, what鈥檚 been learned, versus sort of retreading what has already been explored or tried in the past. And in some cases with success and in some cases with mixed success and, or lack thereof and really dig into that. And in some ways, I think this will build on things that we鈥檝e offered in past seasons, Diane. So listeners may be familiar with some elements of things that we鈥檒l talk about, but I know we are planning a much deeper dive on at least one particular facet of past efforts at transformation that I think is going to be illuminating, frankly, not just for our audience, but for me as well. I鈥檓 really excited to dig into this early in our season, Diane.

Diane Tavenner: Yeah, I鈥檓 excited. I鈥檓 excited.

Michael Horn: Are you nervous? Are you excited? Well, we鈥檙e just sort of scratching the surface of what we might even be talking about for our listeners, but we鈥檝e got some strands planned.

Diane Tavenner: We do have some strands, but before we get to all of those threads, I thought it might be fun for us to capture this moment as we鈥檙e launching this 8th season. And what鈥檚 prompting this is I listened to a few of our first season episodes and found them almost to be these interesting time capsules of a moment in time and a way of life that 鈥� this is the sort of deep in COVID lockdown way of life that, for me, is fading from my memory faster than, honestly, I could have imagined. When we were in it, I was like, oh my gosh, I鈥檓 never, ever gonna forget this. You know, and it just feels like we have context again in this moment that鈥檚 relevant to what鈥檚 happening. So, you know, I thought we might do a little work on that before we sign off.

Michael Horn: I like it. And as you know, when history鈥檚 written, it often sort of flattens sort of the texture, if you will, over time. And so look, these years we鈥檝e all said COVID, you know, post-COVID time has sort of flattened itself and we鈥檙e unable to sort of know the difference between a year or five. But each of these years has been very different from each other. And I think if people listen to our own broadcasts over time, they鈥檒l hear that. So I do think capturing the nuance of this particular moment, this, you know, a shorter period in time, if you will, feels both useful and fun. It sets the landscape for what鈥檚 to come perhaps. But, you know, how do you want to dive in on that?

Discussing current media and experiences

Diane Tavenner: Well, I thought we might do a slightly expanded version of how we end each podcast, which as you and I both know, is a popular part of what we do in terms of tracking what we鈥檙e listening to, what we鈥檙e reading, what we鈥檙e watching. And so I thought we鈥檇 just today maybe, I don鈥檛 know, identify like one to three specific timely pieces of content. And today I鈥檇 even expand it to experiences that we鈥檝e had in this moment that we believe are really defining this period of time. And honestly, I suspect by the end of the season, we might be in an even different period, or we might, you know, there might be some differences. So I was thinking about, you know, personally, you know, how is this impacting us individually or personally as just people in the world, citizens, you know, and then obviously as parents and educators. And so I thought, you know, what are you reading, listening to, watching, experiencing in those three categories that really feel like they are of this moment.

Michael Horn: Fantastic. Well, maybe let鈥檚 start with the personal. This may not be reading, I guess. It might be even more sort of broader as you鈥檝e lived life, I guess. What鈥檚 on your list? Yeah.

Diane Tavenner: Well, and a fun way to catch up on the summer. So for me, the big one here is, so I celebrated my 29th wedding anniversary.

Michael Horn: Congratulations.

Diane Tavenner: Over the summer. Thank you. And for our wedding anniversary every year, we do a state of the union. And so that involves Scott and I going to dinner. I know it鈥檚 so nerdy. It鈥檚 so me, right? So we go and we have a lovely dinner. And then we talk about the state of our union. And we鈥檝e done that for 29 years.

And this year, we decided to take a Waymo to and from the dinner. And I was just reflecting as we were on those rides how 29 years ago, there is no 鈥� like, the idea that I would be in a self-driving car was literally like of 鈥淭he Jetsons.鈥� No joke. Like, it was cartoonish, right? And so it doesn鈥檛 feel that long. And yet, you know, I鈥檓 sitting in this self-driving car. The other crazy thing was I looked it up and, you know, Waymo is 20 years old. And I know this because I live in Mountain View where it started. And so we started seeing Waymos like on the street 16 years ago.

Michael Horn: I remember. Didn鈥檛 one almost hit Sal Khan when I still lived out there, if I鈥檓 remembering correctly?

Diane Tavenner: That might be an urban myth. I don鈥檛 know about that. The progress is extraordinary, but it鈥檚 not overnight. And so I thought this was interesting because we talked about this last season about AI feels like it鈥檚 going to come overnight. And then towards the end of the season, we鈥檙e like, wait a minute, this is going to take a little longer than we were originally thinking. And so that was some of my reflection. But there are changes. Like Waymo now is going on freeways.

Now it鈥檚 going all over the place. The biggest thing was we stopped at multiple stoplights and stop signs. And I kid you not, this was a Saturday night, Michael. We were surrounded by other Waymos.

Michael Horn: Wow.

Diane Tavenner: Like more Waymos on the road. Now granted, I live in a weird part of the world, but more Waymos on the road than regular cars. And it is just, this is life-changing at multiple levels. The next morning we had brunch with my mother-in-law who鈥檚 83, who鈥檚 like super active and whatnot. But we found ourselves talking to her about like, you know, at some point we鈥檙e gonna get you self-driving and then, you know, like she can still stay active and like take that really stressful driving piece off her plate. There鈥檚 just so many life-changing pieces to this and safety elements to it. When you, when you start to get more and more cars that actually drive themselves, it actually becomes safer for humans than when you鈥檝e got humans driving. So, so many reflections in that moment that just felt like, huh.

Michael Horn: Wow. Well, I鈥檓, I鈥檓 sort of jealous because out here in Boston, we don鈥檛 have Waymos yet. You know, I鈥檝e been to California a few times in the last few months, and they were not doing the freeways, like, even a couple months ago when I was out there. So I still have not had a chance to ride in one, and I feel incredibly behind the times. But there鈥檚 another corollary to what you just said also about Scott鈥檚 mom, which is, I think a lot of the predictions, if you will, around AI talk a lot about how it鈥檚 going to make us lonelier and narrow our experience. You just gave an example of how it actually might keep us more social by making it more viable and feasible for people, which I kind of like that. I鈥檒l say personally, Diane, mine has been much more around vibe coding for myself.

Diane Tavenner: Yeah.

Michael Horn: Like, I鈥檝e been using it, like I introduced games on my Substack every Saturday. It has like a sort of a quiz or a timeline trivia game that I launch around education. And I worked on that with Claude over a few months to come up with now over a year鈥檚 worth of these games. I did a college explorer tool to help people rule out things that were not good fits for them, which was super fun. And I just like the level of sort of really using it as an agent and giving it a task and being, you know, OK, you work on that for a few hours, I鈥檒l come back. Still really feeling like the human has to review this work to be super clear.

Diane Tavenner: Yeah.

Michael Horn: Has been mind-boggling and game-changing for me in a lot of ways. And then some of them haven鈥檛 worked, right? Like I tried the AI assistant and was like horrified with the things it was trying to put out in the world. And was like, OK, that鈥檚 like, maybe I have a control complex, but I鈥檓 just not ready to use it in that way. And so where is it useful? Where is it not? Where I can control or review the output seems incredibly useful. And I鈥檝e been quite stunned. Obviously, people have been using it that way for a while, but I鈥檓 aggressively now making use of that.

Diane Tavenner: Well, and it sounds like doing things you just literally wouldn鈥檛 do without it.

Michael Horn: 100%, right? The productivity increases.

Diane Tavenner: Yeah. Yeah. And not just productivity on the things you would already have done, but like you鈥檙e literally pushing yourself into places that you wouldn鈥檛 have gone before and doing things you wouldn鈥檛 have thought about doing. So fascinating. Oh goodness.

Michael Horn: Should we switch gears to, what was your second one? It was a citizen of the world. Was that it?

Diane Tavenner: Citizen of the world.

Michael Horn: What does that mean? Yeah.

Diane Tavenner: Well, just like someone in the, well, here, Just something you鈥檙e noticing in the world, just as a person in the world right now. I will tell you, for me, I listened to a recent episode of the Ezra Klein podcast where he interviewed Helen Toner, who 鈥� oh, I鈥檓 forgetting the 鈥� she runs some AI research think tank. Sorry.

Michael Horn: Yeah.

Diane Tavenner: You should know that. We鈥檒l get it in the notes. But she also was probably more known for being one of the board members at OpenAI.

Michael Horn: OpenAI, right?

Diane Tavenner: Yeah.

Michael Horn: Director of strategy at Georgetown Center for Security and Emerging Technology and co-author of a critical report on OpenAI鈥檚 ChatGPT.

OpenAI testing incident

Diane Tavenner: Well, thank you for saving me on that one. And then yes, one of the folks who was on the board when they were attempting to oust Sam Altman as CEO. All of that said, it鈥檚 a fascinating conversation. I highly recommend it. The piece where they sort of begin is around, and this is the thing that鈥檚 so interesting to me as a person of the world, is this, I鈥檓 not sure totally like paid attention to occurrence by the public, but I think for me it was pretty profound, is this break-in of the company Hugging Face by AI, OpenAI. And so like the short story here is, and there鈥檚 a lot of details, is that OpenAI, like all of the big, you know, hyperscalers, is building AI and testing AI all of the time. And it asked a bunch of its AI, let鈥檚 call them agents for the moment, I鈥檓 not sure they would call that, to do these tasks as part of their test. And they did it in this contained environment.

So they basically wall off the environment and say, You can鈥檛 go out of this environment. You do this task inside here. And as I start to describe this, start listening for what sounds familiar, 鈥榗ause that鈥檚 what I was doing. And these agents, and then they put a lot of pressure on this AI to accomplish this task. And in some cases, the tasks are so hard, and in some cases, they鈥檙e impossible tasks.

Michael Horn: They鈥檙e impossible without taking dramatically different steps, yeah.

Diane Tavenner: Totally. But they put so much pressure on these agents to do it that in this particular case, They broke out of their, like, space and they went and they actually broke into Hugging Face because Hugging Face has code. And so they went and stole the code. But not only that, they colluded with each other. So in order to do that, they, like, figured out how to leave each other little messages that would help them figure out how to break out and what they would do and whatnot. So they, like, ganged up together to go and, and commit this crime, if you will. The crazy thing is neither company really knows that it happened for a while, and then they kind of bumble into figuring out that it happens. And once they do, then Anthropic says, oh, I wonder if that ever happened to us.

And they go and look and they find, oh, ours did that too before. And so the whole story as it鈥檚 being narrated, I just kept thinking two things to myself. Oh my gosh, this AI is behaving just like a teenager would behave. Like we put kids, like, we give these conflicting messages to them. We put them in these boxes of school and we say, here, do these things. They鈥檙e really hard and they鈥檙e really complicated and you鈥檙e probably gonna fail and we鈥檙e kind of setting you up, you know, and we put a lot of pressure on you to do that. And then on the other side, and we say, oh, and by the way, be a really good human and don鈥檛 break any laws and don鈥檛 do anything bad and, you know, whatever. And then they鈥檙e stuck between these, like, what they perceive as values tension.

And so, this experience felt very human to me. And there鈥檚 this ongoing debate about when do we actually get to sort of human-like AI? And for me, I was like, ooh, ooh, we鈥檙e there. Wow, this feels very teenage-like behavior to me.

Michael Horn: It鈥檚 so interesting you landed on that one because when you posed the category, the one I went to was this David Deming post and podcast. So for those that don鈥檛 know, David Deming, Dean of Harvard鈥檚 Faculty of Arts and Sciences, but his research has been around a lot around mobility and things of that nature, but also AI and what its impact on work and so forth will be in that context as an economist. And he has a great Substack, highly recommend it. It鈥檚 called Fork Lightning, I think is what it鈥檚 called. But he had a post called Should We Treat Autonomous AI Agents Like Children. And it is literally speaking to this same incident. And he basically, like, he talks about how federal legislation is coming, and he sort of interprets all the different ones through it and shows the problems, I think, with what鈥檚 out there right now in the current frameworks. And then he extends this different one, which is, you know, what you said, the model didn鈥檛 actually go rogue, and that鈥檚 sort of the problem in all of this.

And he proposes that OpenAI should, we should view it as the parent and its agents are the children. And so that鈥檚 exactly like the teenager analogy that you just said. And it would do a few things then. One, it gives the responsibility to the parent, right?

Diane Tavenner: Yeah.

Teaching responsibilities and ethics

Michael Horn: You don鈥檛 charge the teen. Second, it says model training is not like Pavlov鈥檚 dog with kids. Like you have principles that you try to reinforce and have them live up to. And that鈥檚 sort of the shading, if you will, right, that we do around ethical and moral teaching. And then it starts to help you think through what sets of responsibilities would you or would you not give to this teenager, if you will, in your analogy, or perhaps different levels of kids if you think a little bit more nuanced around it. I think that鈥檚 the high level. I will say I had a totally flip of thought also when you were talking about of the world, and I don鈥檛 know if this is the right category for it almost, but I think about, I鈥檓 just coming off a weekend, as you know, with my parents and my family in the Berkshires. We were at Tanglewood where we went to 2 music performances, very different, Cynthia Erivo on one hand and Beethoven鈥檚 Ninth on the other.

And then we were at Jacob鈥檚 Pillow for this pretty out-there set of dancing with robots and sort of audiovisual music and stuff like that. And I guess I just, What screamed out loudly for me, and I have a piece that I鈥檝e written about this as well, is just, I think in a world where certain things become more abundant, the scarcity we feel around being with other humans, around human performance, will actually pull us potentially out in the world. Maybe I鈥檓 overly hopeful, but I actually think there鈥檒l be more premium and value connected to our connectedness. And that鈥檚 what it made me reflect on as well, sitting in there. This group of strangers just all enthralled with these live, in some cases, very unplanned performances. And reflecting, frankly, I won鈥檛 name which performance felt which, but I enjoyed the one that felt the most of the moment and spontaneous, as opposed to every action was preplanned.

Diane Tavenner: Mm-hmm.

Michael Horn: That was much less interesting and exciting to me, and I felt much less energy from those around me as well.

Diane Tavenner: So interesting. What is old is new again, right? Like in-person performances, spontaneity around that, teaching ethics and morals.

Michael Horn: Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly.

Diane Tavenner: Next thing you know, we鈥檙e going to be calling for blue books. No, we鈥檙e not.

Michael Horn: No, the form changes. Maybe certain principles stay the same.

Diane Tavenner: OK, this last category, I admit, not surprising. I鈥檝e got sort of a small pile of things, but I think they all connect together. And so, as you know, with my parent/educator hat on, I had, I read a couple things, had a couple of experiences that I think are worth threading together. So the first is I went to the ISTE conference in Orlando this summer, and I decided to do something I never ever do, which is I spent almost four hours walking the vendor floor there where, you know, literally walking the entire floor. And I had a set of questions I asked of every place I stopped, the same set of questions, which was mostly just like, what do you do? And it started with that. And there鈥檚 so many takeaways I have from this experience, but the first was 鈥� I was sadly not surprised, but kind of deeply disturbed how many people said to me, we do AI for education.

Michael Horn: Oh dear.

Diane Tavenner: And yes, oh dear is what I was like.

Michael Horn: Not like a 鈥� OK, wow. Not a problem solver.

Diane Tavenner: What is that? What does that mean? And these very lovely people on the floor would then pull me over to a computer and show me, quote, what AI for education is. And we鈥檝e had this conversation multiple times. The term AI is so nondescriptive, right? It鈥檚 such a giant range of possibilities and possible things, and that was evidence on the floor. The bigger concern I had was it was just like this big flash, like, we do AI, so of course it鈥檚 great. We do AI for education. And so that was deeply concerning, as you might imagine. The other thing that was deeply concerning was, well, or that I noticed was, you know, this is a premier conference. I don鈥檛 know, 10,000, 15,000 people there, huge.

This is a big vendor floor. And so, this is where vendors go. These booths, they鈥檙e not even booths. They were like entire setups by giant big name brands. So the big 鈥� think of all the big brands in our society and they are there. And it stuns me that we often talk 鈥� think of education as like this not a very good market or you can鈥檛 really make money.

And I was like, well, you wouldn鈥檛 be able to tell that from all of these brand name companies that are literally spending hundreds and hundreds of thousands of dollars to be on this floor right now appealing to educators. And so that was interesting. And then this morning I read Natasha Singer鈥檚 article in the New York Times.

Michael Horn: So we鈥檙e timestamping this when we鈥檙e recording. Yeah, keep going.

Diane Tavenner: Sorry.

Michael Horn: No, that鈥檚 good. It鈥檚 good.

Diane Tavenner: Yeah. It鈥檚 called 鈥淗ow Big Tech Captured America鈥檚 Schools.鈥� And certainly this is one of the things that she鈥檚 speaking to, you know, and she names, you know, Google and Microsoft and sort of Meta, all the usual suspects in terms of how they are, in her word, capturing kind of the entire chain of purchasing in education and influencing it. And so to conceptually great profit. I encourage folks to read it. It鈥檚, I think, an interesting, not surprising read. But I do think there, what struck me is a couple things that, well, first of all, she noticed what I noticed on that floor, right? So she鈥檚 describing that. But I do think there鈥檚 a couple of things she missed.

School security and operations industry

Diane Tavenner: And so, she misses a whole鈥� all the other people who are capturing America鈥檚 schools. And so what she doesn鈥檛 speak to are鈥� I鈥檓 going to put them mostly in the operations category of schools. So when I was walking that floor, I can鈥檛 tell you how many booths were about door locking and blocking and metal detectors and alarms and camera systems and digital visitor systems and even how to, you know, manage your field trips and things. So the operational business of school buses, all of those things, is a massive, massive industry. Staples, Office Depot, like, these brands are totally there. And I feel like those folks sort of get a bit of a pass. And I鈥檓 like, wait a minute, isn鈥檛 putting giant fences around our school and running kids through metal detectors鈥� I mean, we鈥檝e done episodes, multiple episodes on that.

Michael Horn: Yeah, we should link back to it.

Diane Tavenner: Of hardening and locking down our schools. Like, hello, we鈥檙e missing that piece. So that I think gets missed in this article. And then the bigger thing that鈥檚 even more concerning to me is how all of this technology just solidifies the industrial model of school that we have, and it just locks it in place and prevents us from creating a more modern version of the education we need because they鈥檙e literally building to what exists, not to a future that we all want. And so that鈥檚 the big problem for me. And then the last piece, and then I will shut up. Sorry.

Michael Horn: That鈥檚 great.

Diane Tavenner: This was a big category for me, is, I鈥檓 just going to name all of the articles I鈥檝e read on education this summer. And certainly, 社区黑料 is a big source of all of those articles. But all, I mean, lots of people writing about education today. Take those together with legislation, and I looked it up this morning. We鈥檙e currently at 40 states that have enacted statewide policies or statutes or executive orders that restrict the 鈥� I鈥檓 just talking about the personal use of technology in schools, that all those have passed in the last couple of years. And so when I take what鈥檚 happening in the policy realm and what鈥檚 being written about, what鈥檚 clear to me is that fear is driving so many of our decisions around our schools and our education system and our children. And these articles and the reason for this policy are grounded in these stats and these identified problems that make us fearful. Literally, the list is so long.

Discussing educational and societal challenges

Diane Tavenner: It鈥檚 learning loss, cheating, grade inflation, mental health issues, social media鈥檚 impact on young people鈥檚 mental health, suicide increasing, drug overdoses increasing, school shootings, physical health in decline, jobs going away, cost of college and unemployment, increase in autism, decrease in vaccination. I mean, I could literally go on and on and on and on. And what my big takeaway is, it leads to mixed messages and an incoherence around what we鈥檙e doing at the policy level, what we鈥檙e doing at the school site building level, and I think even what we鈥檙e doing as parents despite our best effort. And it leads people to be angry and fighting with each other and believing that other people have ill intentions and are wrong. And none of it leads to creating a vision for what we want and building that, which is where I want to spend my energy in both my work and in our conversations this season. So that feels like big, heavy context as we enter.

Michael Horn: Wow. My only thought back 鈥� no, I hear it, right? And there鈥檚 a lot around threat versus opportunity framing, and threat is important to get you to take notice of something, but if you stay in a threat framing, it鈥檚 all reactive, batten the hatches, top-down, do as you have done. And I think the current environment of that, if you will, is programs or policies that protect as opposed to opportunity framing, which is around creating the conditions for the sorts of thriving that you want to see.

Diane Tavenner: Yes.

Michael Horn: And that strikes me as the dual thing more broadly going on in policy right now. And I鈥檒l get to mine in a moment, but I guess it actually, I can make it relate, which is you have regulating the existing system even more with just one more policy here, one more thing here. Thou shalt not do this, thou shalt not do that. And meanwhile, you have these education savings accounts where I think the real disruption could come from if it comes from anywhere. Because you can really design new systems from, and I鈥檒l use the word systems, not just schools, from scratch.

Diane Tavenner: Right.

Michael Horn: And I think I more deeply believe that鈥檚 the opportunity, but it鈥檚 going to have to be if we鈥檙e going to continue to sort of regulate every single edge case with like another policy as opposed to like, yeah, such and such is bad. We already have a law that says like it鈥檚 bad. What are we doing? And I guess this will get to the one thing that I sort of react to, I went to several conversations and conferences this summer. It was a pretty, a busy summer, actually. It was not much time off. But the one that I went to was this VELA Education Conference. And for those that don鈥檛 know VELA, hopefully I鈥檓 pronouncing it correctly, they鈥檙e a fund that basically makes microgrants to a lot of microschools and startup sort of unschooling, homeschooling, small schools, sort of entrepreneurial, educator-driven, very grassroots efforts. And they鈥檝e made thousands of these, I think, at this point, very small grants.

And so they have this sort of conference of their grantees, I guess and it鈥檚 the first time I鈥檝e been. I got to speak on a panel about AI. And I won鈥檛 say much except just, I was struck by Diane. It鈥檚 the only conference I think I can remember being at. Most education conferences, you get together and everyone thinks that they鈥檙e doing it right and everyone else is doing it wrong of school leaders.

Diane Tavenner: Yeah.

Michael Horn: This was a group of incredibly wide range, diverse, very different models that would never be in a room together. And they were all so united around giving people the freedom to create the models that would work for the kids that they鈥檙e serving. And that鈥檚 what, like, and they were all cheerleading each other on that, even though I suspect like the Forest School would never do, I鈥檓 not going to come up with examples, but like something across the room, they didn鈥檛 care. They were like, so cool that you鈥檙e doing your thing to let these students make progress. And there wasn鈥檛 that judging that I see in so many other places. They were just in support of each other. I don鈥檛 think I鈥檓 doing a good job of describing it, but it was a very different positive sum. We can all exist and create the things that serve our unique constituents well to make progress.

And there wasn鈥檛 that sort of mine is better than yours that I鈥檝e definitely felt at certain charter school conferences and others where there鈥檚 sort of like everyone鈥檚 giving side-eye to the other one.

Diane Tavenner: Yeah.

Michael Horn: And I think it was very I left very hopeful from that vibe.

Diane Tavenner: Well, that felt like a move toward, away from the industrial model system where literally everything鈥檚 the same and everyone鈥檚 expected to be the same except better than the other person. Right. And until you move away from that to where all the different approaches are embraced. So that鈥檚 hopeful.

Michael Horn: Yeah. And then these all educators were cheerleading each other toward that end that you just described, which is a better way. You just said it better than I did.

Diane Tavenner: No, I don鈥檛 know about that. So I think all that to say, it鈥檚 a complex moment.

Michael Horn: It is a complex moment. There鈥檚 a lot going on.

Diane Tavenner: Yeah.

Michael Horn: But a lot for us to unpack. And so I guess sort of the recap, right, is a couple themes that we鈥檙e going to dwell in. We鈥檙e going to sort of give a new lens or building on the lenses from last year to think about what does that new schooling model look like in an era of AI, and I think still coming out of this COVID moment.

Diane Tavenner: Yeah.

Looking ahead: AI in high school education

Michael Horn: And we鈥檙e going to focus particularly on high school. We鈥檙e going to do lessons learned from a past effort at innovation in specific, and what do we really take from that? And sort of, I don鈥檛 know if it鈥檚 set the record straight, but try to get that record out there maybe is the better way to say it. And then a lot of interviews, as folks have come to expect, from people on the ground seeing these AI implementations in different ways, to unleash different possibilities in schooling. And AI will certainly be our frame of exploration, but it鈥檚 not the purpose. It鈥檚 What does it unleash in learning that wasn鈥檛 possible before? Anything else we should mention before we leave people with this meaty welcome back episode? No, I love it.

Diane Tavenner: So much for the 10-minute welcome back episode, but I hope that this was engaging for folks as it was for me. It was fun to hear here to catch up on your summer and what you鈥檝e been thinking about and get us set up for this season.

Michael Horn: Likewise, likewise. Well, we鈥檒l leave it there. We鈥檙e excited to be in conversation with each other and all of you throughout the season. So join us next time on Class Disrupted.

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